• bosworth posted a new activity comment 1 week, 1 day ago

    Yet it hasn’t.. it has struggled for a few decades. Even in the US the professional game has struggled and they’ve had the trophies.

    Women’s sport struggle, women leave sport as teenagers. It’s a massive issue for all sports to combat and so for limited success.

    The popularity of male football has nothing to do with 1966.

  • bosworth posted a new activity comment 1 week, 1 day ago

    In the kindest words: Maybe you feel that football is “(one of) the last bastions of men’s sporting prowess?” I am just guessing….There is no reason to like women’s judo /athletics/ etc and and at the same time not to like women’s football IMHO (you did ask…)

    I am not interested in any of the sports above btw, but I do understand what it is like to be a woman in sports and up against it.

    No criticism, but you did ask for comment x

    • @bosworth Not really, I am no great fan of men’s football fan either, I just follow my shit hometown club (Nuremberg) out of nostalgia and masochism and I am only half serious anyway.

      The reason I posted was that last weekend I was trying to relax a bit by watching some sports coming home from a full day’s work and a five hour drive, but all that was on was women’s football. The only thing that would have been worse for me would have been horse dancing or golf….

      As I said, I don’t know what it is about women’s football in particular that makes me switch channels.

      My own sports are judo and climbing, and in both I like watching women’s comps as much as men’s events. The only other sport where I also strongly prefer watching the male version is handball (the Euro team game, not…[Read more]

    • Chris replied 1 week ago

      What kind of gobbledygook is that? What is it like to be a woman in sports and be up against what? This isn’t prejudice, it’s a simple fact, there is no team sport I can think of where women are equal to men in terms of entertainment or skill or strength.

  • Are you sure about this? I have no particular knowledge of the topic but my understanding was that there are tests to distinguish between naturally-produced and artificially injected testosterone.

    If it was simply a matter of accepting any value below a certain level as fine then by your own logic many athletes would already have been doping up to just below that level, which I haven’t seen any suggestion of. If they were, that would surely have been part of this Caster Semenya conversation.

  • bosworth posted a new activity comment 1 month, 2 weeks ago

    well the Victorians probably put them in freak show travelling circuses and gave them snazzy names…

    I am not entirely convinced the general population views these things a whole lot differently.

    by the way, I am not suggesting there is anything “wrong” with Caster, simply that in the highly competitive and regulated world of elite sport, issues such as categorisation of sexes needs to be considered if the sport is to be fair and a level playing field.

    • Sport isn’t and never will be a level playing field. At the top level in athletics, all of the competitors have some physical traits that allow them to be faster/stronger/fitter etc than other competitors. The majority of the population could never reach their levels even with a lifetime of equally hard work as the top athletes have put in.

      It seems the elevated testosterone gives Semenya an advantage over other athletes. What I struggle with is drawing a line where some traits that provide an advantage are deemed OK while others require athletes to undergo treatment to reduce/remove the advantage.

      I’m not sure what the right answer is but I can’t see a solution that is fair to women like Semenya and also to other women with much lower testosterone levels.

  • bosworth posted a new activity comment 1 month, 2 weeks ago

    the difficulty is that you are not comparing like with like. we do not have different basketball leagues for small; medium and tall people. so height is not a factor which determines categorisation

    equally, with the weight categories, they would be free to other, heavier weight categories ad inifintum if they so wished – it would still be fair for all competing

    the difficulty with Caster is that they cannot / have not added an extra category to lump all the “super-heavyweights” together

  • bosworth posted a new activity comment 1 month, 2 weeks ago

    I didn’t catch his name – he sounded south African. Given that he was “defending” Caster I doubt he was Ross Tucker from your description of his bugbear.

    what he was saying (if I understood it right) is that testosterone in your body does not have the same effect in all individuals.

    So in person X, 20 nanomoles (or whatever it was) of testosterone may equate to superior muscle mass building ability, and / or aerobic endurance

    In person Y however, exactly the same amount may have no such positive effect on athletic ability

    not entirely sure how that helps his argument to be honest, or where to go from there, but there does need to be some way of defining what are the relevant defining features of either sex.

  • bosworth posted an update 1 month, 2 weeks ago

    Caster Semenya. Just wondering what people’s views are on this?

    My initial view is that it is (rightly) widely accepted that there should be certain categorisations in organised sport – male / female; age; physical disability. That being the case, there does need to be some method of policing this. There are no eyebrows raised when arguments over categorisation of a particular disability arises in the Paralympics – we expect that to be carefully scrutinised. we would not object to someone wanting to compete e.g as a U20, to prove their age. So why would we object to someone wanting to compete as a female to demonstrably fit into that category?

    the difficulty for me is that, having listened on R4 to an expert (albeit one who had been hired by Semenya), testosterone levels are a…[Read more]

    • South African athlete Caster Semenya, who has been accused of being ‘too male’ to compete in women’s events, has lost her appeal to the IAA. Her mother said in an interview that ‘my daughter has worked really hard for her success. This decision is a real kick in the bollocks for her’

    • Was that ‘expert’ Ross Tucker!? He loves sticking his oar in, and as a frustrated wannabe pro sportsman his favourite hobby is trying to prove that anyone with any success in endurance sport is doping. I’m not a fan.

      Regarding Semenya I take the same position as you – sport is a ‘fictional framework’ in which people compete and that framework has rules into which you must fit etc. Removing the emotive impact of the terminology; if you have a ‘restricted’ category – ‘female’ – there needs to be rules as to who can enter the restricted category. Self identification is not satisfactory due to the possibility of gaming the system. Semenya doesn’t fit the rules for the restricted category of ‘female’.

      • I didn’t catch his name – he sounded south African. Given that he was “defending” Caster I doubt he was Ross Tucker from your description of his bugbear.

        what he was saying (if I understood it right) is that testosterone in your body does not have the same effect in all individuals.

        So in person X, 20 nanomoles (or whatever it was) of testosterone may equate to superior muscle mass building ability, and / or aerobic endurance

        In person Y however, exactly the same amount may have no such positive effect on athletic ability

        not entirely sure how that helps his argument to be honest, or where to go from there, but there does need to be some way of defining what are the relevant defining features of either sex.

    • it all seems a bit to perfectionist to me and the real danger is that individuals are being segregated and labelled (by them and the authorities) as freaks in all but name for the benefit of pressure groups when all these people want tis to be themselves and compete in sport as themselves.

      I may be old fashioned but I thought the Idea of sport was to bring people together, not put them in ghettos to suit the loud.

    • I think Caster Semenya is a really difficult case because she’s naturally got really high levels of testosterone for a woman but still much lower than a man. It would be different if she was getting the testosterone from medication. We don’t ban basketball players for being way out at the edge of the population distribution in terms of height even though that gives an advantage. So why ban someone who is naturally way out on the edge in terms of testosterone levels.

      The actual problem is that two categories male and female are not enough to deal with intersex athletes. Its analogous to a sport with weight categories and having somebody much heavier/larger than everyone else in the heavyweight category. Making a new category for one person isn’t sensible and she’s…[Read more]

      • the difficulty is that you are not comparing like with like. we do not have different basketball leagues for small; medium and tall people. so height is not a factor which determines categorisation

        equally, with the weight categories, they would be free to other, heavier weight categories ad inifintum if they so wished – it would still be fair for all competing

        the difficulty with Caster is that they cannot / have not added an extra category to lump all the “super-heavyweights” together

    • One thing that is quite irritating about this ruling is that there is a general consensus that athletes should not be medicating specifically for competition, and yet Semenya is explicitly being told to medicate in order to compete (or retire).

      It does seem (to me) to be unfair to exclude some women from competing in international sport just because they have a natural advantage due to some developmental characteristic. To take that argument to an extreme we could say that women are typically shorter than men, and so any women above 6′ should also be excluded.

    • There have always been people with XXY Chromosomes, both a vagina and penis, gender dysmorphia etc… It’s just that they were hushed up, hidden away and made to feel like they mustn’t talk about how they were different.

      Now we are allowed to open about how we’re made. Some people don’t like it as it confuses them, and they aren’t able to put people in the only pigeonholes that thought existed, but the fact is it’s our understanding of people that have changed, not people themselves.

      • well the Victorians probably put them in freak show travelling circuses and gave them snazzy names…

        I am not entirely convinced the general population views these things a whole lot differently.

        by the way, I am not suggesting there is anything “wrong” with Caster, simply that in the highly competitive and regulated world of elite sport, issues such as categorisation of sexes needs to be considered if the sport is to be fair and a level playing field.

        • Sport isn’t and never will be a level playing field. At the top level in athletics, all of the competitors have some physical traits that allow them to be faster/stronger/fitter etc than other competitors. The majority of the population could never reach their levels even with a lifetime of equally hard work as the top athletes have put in.

          It seems the elevated testosterone gives Semenya an advantage over other athletes. What I struggle with is drawing a line where some traits that provide an advantage are deemed OK while others require athletes to undergo treatment to reduce/remove the advantage.

          I’m not sure what the right answer is but I can’t see a solution that is fair to women like Semenya and also to other women with much lower testosterone levels.

    • she is obviously not female in a way that mist people understand what being female is, just look at her biceps for example.

      We then run into the question of how one defines male and female and the issue is that it’s difficult to come up with an objective measure. Those who think intersex people should be allowed to self identify use this difficulty in objective definition to their advantage by sowing doubt when in fact, we all know deep down that people like Caster are physically different.

      It doesn’t make her any less of a person, just different.

      • I didn’t think that the ruling had questioned whether she is female at all; basically, that isn’t up for debate here. There is a discussion to be had about categorisation of sex/gender and how that is used within sport, but this ruling was made under the current framework and the ruling has therefore said that she is not allowed to have the natural advantage that she does.

        They didn’t ban Miguel Indurain for having abnormally large lungs, or Michael Phelps for having a body that could have been designed for swimming, or any number of other gifted sportspeople for whatever it is that naturally made them so good. Under the way athletics is currently set up, I can’t see any difference which would mean the ruling against Semenya should go the way it has. Tough luck for her…[Read more]

    • If female “women’s” sport is for individuals assigned female at birth and who identify as female then caster should be allowed to compete.

      If however female sport is for people with testosterone at a certain level then caster shouldn’t be able to compete, and not would potentially many other females depending on where the limit is set…..

      ….But those testosterone rules open the door for male-female trans runners and weightlifters who have the full benefit of male puberty and sometimes years training as an adult male etc. Were it not for a horrific injury last year’s commonwealth gold in the 90+kg women’s category would have gone to a 40 year old male who, I think, only transitioned in her late 30s.

      Sharron Davies has stepped in on both of these recent stories (caster and…[Read more]

      • The danger for athletics is that it goes the same way as cycling, with PEDs being condoned up to a certain level. Caster now has to reduce her testosterone to a certain level; does that mean that other female athletes will be allowed to increase their testosterone to that level, in order to ensure they are on the playing field as defined by the IAAF? dont forget most of the peloton in the tdf are supposedly asthmatic, as the only test is that levels of the asthma drugs they take must be below a certain level, and non asthmatics also benefit from the effects of the drug.

        As others hsve said, this is elite world level sport, and anyone in the olympic final of an athletic event is a performance outlier. They are the best 8 in the world in Semanya’s event. Yes, she’s a genetic…[Read more]

    • The issue boils down to what it means to be a female, which unfortunately has a different answer depending on the context in question.

      In many situations there’s a lot to be said for self-identification, as it clearly offers major psychological advantages to those whose sex assignment changes or never fitted cleanly into either binary category.

      But in sport that solution has major problems due to the considerable advantage that sometimes may come with being trans or with being inter-sex and competing as a female athlete.

      Trans is, to my mind, an easy one to dismiss, although I can appreciate the argument for it while still disagreeing. It’s inter-sex issues that are the really thorny issue because the nature and scope of inter-sex differences is broad and diverse, including…[Read more]

      • I’m not sure there’s so much difference between trans and intersex. A trans person is going to have taken a lot of artificial hormones, maybe for a long time, so they’re going to be as untypically male as they are female (whichever way they transition), much like an intersex person.

        As a monist (in the mind-body sense) I would view trans people as having an intersex condition affecting the brain; and the same with homosexuality – a bit controversial, but logical IMO. Once a trans person has taken a load of hormones I don’t see how they can compete “on a level playing field” with either sex.

        I think the thorny issue is a broad one: like every single other biological category, the boundaries of male and female are blurred. Competitive sport is a context in which the boundary has…[Read more]

    • She is not “female” by the definition of the the term so if “she” wishes to compete she’ll have to go in the open category with everyone else (the men).

      Ideally you’d not want to separate out any group of people but the fact is humans are in 99.999% of cases divided into two genetic sex’s. And it’s a known fact one of those sexes is at a significant physical disadvantage to the other.

      So we have a choice, you can watch the fastest people on earth race and never see a woman in top level sport again, or you can make a catagory for women to enable the 50% of the population to compete with each other against others with the same genetic disadvantage (XX chromosomes) to see who is the fastest XX human.

      A catagory is a division based on rules and criteria which define what is…[Read more]

    • The fundamental thing here is that we have got to get to grips with the fact that nature is not as clever as we thought it was at this binary gender thing. It is the 21st Century and human knowledge is building at a cracking pace that very few can keep up with. Rules from a century ago, or 40 years ago, are worthless in the face of knowledge that hardly anyone even suspected existed back then.

      I was particularly struck by the news report that told of the position of AIS intersex athletes. These athletes have been born, and have developed, as women yet they are XY and have higher than female levels of testosterone. However, the fact that they have been born and developed as women shows that the testosterone is of no use to them (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome), so they should…[Read more]

    • Semenya wins at the same range as other women do which is 10 % less than males in the same events. This shows us that the supposedly massive advantage she is said to have doesn’t transfer on to the times she runs at and that is the only place it matters as far as this ruling goes.

      This makes a mockery of the ruling which is a political decision and nothing to do with the times ran by Semenya and her supposedly huge advantage which doesn’t materialise on the track.

    • Undoubtedly a fascinating and controversial topic, which science may inform but not completely solve. I can happily both support Caster and wish for a fair athletic solution, without knowing what it might be, as I sit here, on the fence (ouch!).

      Ina recent report it is stated that Semenya is an “affected athlete” under IAAF regulations, which list the specific differences of sex development (DSDs) that are of concern to sport. These cases all involve “46, XY” disorders, whereby individuals with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each cell (a pattern normally typical of males)…”

      Elsewhere I have not seen this verified and I don’t think it has been referenced as fact in this thread. I don’t know if it is true, but it is stated in the article that Semenya has acknowl…[Read more]

  • The press release is quite interesting. Distance is relevant because the rule only applies to middle distances because that is where this issue crops up.

  • Do you find that paracetamol or ibuprofen no longer works for ordinary headaches?

    Nothing gets rid of a headache for me now unless it’s sumatriptan, which gets rid of any headache or migraine within an hour or so thank goodness.

  • I watched a documentary on her recently. I wish she’d known how important her short life was.

  • Shajar sounds pretty cool. Two more I’ve thought to add are Rachel Carson, whose book Silent Spring was so influential in the modern conservation and environmental movement, and Eleanor Roosevelt who was influential in the drafting of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

  • Name the women you think have changed the world!

  • I think that it’s incredibly sad that these few morons are spoiling things for the majority but I also believe that these aren’t incidents isolated to football. Unfortunately this kind of thing happens every weekend across British towns and it is being highlighted more because of the World Cup which just gives these clueless yobs an excuse.

    They sicken me because this should be something for the nation to enjoy. Many of the young men on the England Team have worked extremely hard to perfect their talent. They are not kids that have had everything handed to them on a plate and I think it’s great for some children to see them and think that they could be the next big thing. Anyone can be a footballer, no matter what your race, religion or background and surely in a world where…[Read more]

  • bosworth replied to the topic World Cup 2018 in the forum General Banter 11 months, 3 weeks ago

    Exactly! This was always about prolonging England’s stay in Russia, and Southgate has done just that with this result.

    Now England will get knocked out next Tuesday instead of Monday. Mission accomplished.

  • bosworth replied to the topic World Cup 2018 in the forum General Banter 11 months, 4 weeks ago

    Two things have struck me so far. The first is probably not surprising. The foreign pundits like Fabregas and Zabaleta can speak in a more grammatically correct manner than most of the native English speaking ones. Secondly, I am amazed at the numbers of fans from supposedly poor countries who are able to afford a trip to Russia. I know that Colombia has a flourishing export sector but still………

  • bosworth replied to the topic World Cup 2018 in the forum General Banter 1 year ago

    Sterling was poor, Loftus Cheek looked good for the limited time he was on against a tired team.

    Thought Trippier was the best player on the park – apart from his two goals (which is why he is in the team) thought Kane was invisible, especially in the second half.

    One question – can Vardy and Kane play in the same team? Know that Vardy is good in counter attack, which wasn’t required against Tunisia, just wondering if teh two can play together?

  • bosworth replied to the topic World Cup 2018 in the forum General Banter 1 year ago

    It would be good if one of the finalists wasn’t one of the big five though.

    Why?

    It would only likely lead to a boring one-sided game.

  • bosworth replied to the topic Any sciatica experts? in the forum Health 1 year ago

    Glad to hear you have been seen and referred. I totally feel your pain. I’m still off work with mine and I have an MRI booked for next week. Hope you get relief soon.

  • IF it happened to me I would see the GP if it was still bad/very bad after a couple more days

    I hope it gets better by itself really soon, good luck

  • bosworth replied to the topic Any sciatica experts? in the forum Health 1 year ago

    I’m at week 5 of my latest bout of it. Niggly back pain became worse followed by tingly toes and nerve pain in calf and thigh. Went to bed, didn’t sleep due to spasms and cramps, got up in the morning to find no pain what so ever but a left leg that felt as though it didn’t belong. My foot was numb and I have no power to move it. I’m not going to lie, I laid in bed and lifted my left arm up in the air several times… I thought I’d had a stroke!

    Doctors gave me naproxen and diazepam and referred me to physio. I’ve been seeing my chiro in the mean time. Which is helping. On advice of my chiro (who does suffer with her own back problems) I switched pain relief from naproxen to co codamol, which I find does help me better.

    I’ve been doing gentle stretching exercises and trying to…[Read more]

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