This topic contains 37 replies, has 31 voices, and was last updated by  alec 3 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #4148

    anne
    Participant

    I’ve read online many times that men prefer women who are not independent. Is this true? I am completely independent as are most, if not all, the women I know so are there a lot of disappointed men about?

    In my experience, men are not after women who want to languish around the house doing nothing but rather expect their partners to work, whether inside or outside the home assuming they are in sufficiently good physical and mental health. Do I just know peculiar men who are not representative of the species as a whole?

    I worked for most of my life and am, hopefully, about to start again and although my OH is happy for me to do whatever I want he would never dream of telling me that I couldn’t work, or do anything else for that matter. Have I just been lucky or is the whole ‘men only like women who can’t fend for themselves’ thing a myth?!!

    • This topic was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Jess.
    #4149

    Fi
    Participant

    Surely there’s a spectrum? I’ve met several men, including my own brother, who can’t sustain a relationship with an equal, and have to be able to guide/teach/help the other party in some way, ie that she must always be in some way or another either inferior or dependant. Then there are men like my OH, married for 40 years to one of the most independent woman you are likely to come across. I also had friends when younger where he didn’t make a move unless she told him to. When I asked him why he put up with it, he said ‘have you thought that maybe I like it?’. He enjoyed the total lack of responsibility.

    Room for all sorts, I think, people just need to find their match.

    #4150

    connie
    Participant

    While I am not financially independent I am very independent in that I don’t do the little woman thing very well.
    I am very straight I say what I think I was once told I communicated like a man It was Intended as a compliment i did not really feel it was.
    I lived most of my life with my husband away so I am used to sorting stuff without reference to anyone, that’s made for interesting moments since he’s retired.

    #4151

    jess
    Participant

    While I am not financially independent I am very independent in that I don’t do the little woman thing very well.
    I am very straight I say what I think I was once told I communicated like a man It was Intended as a compliment i did not really feel it was.
    I lived most of my life with my husband away so I am used to sorting stuff without reference to anyone, that’s made for interesting moments since he’s retired.

    @connie Imagine what a problem that causes with the wives of armed service officers

    Away for up to two years at a stretch, then come home and expect to continue barking orders to a wife who has managed absolutely everything without him.

    It made for some great arguments in our house when I was growing up!!

    #4152

    beckyE
    Participant

    Seems I have been very lucky then as I wouldn’t let any man into my life who wanted to ‘guide’ me or patronise me! As you said, it takes all sorts but I’ve never actually heard any woman describe herself as ‘dependent’ or ‘in need of manly guidance’. It will be interesting to see if anyone who identifies as such makes a contribution to this thread as I’d love to hear their point of view.

    #4153

    donna
    Participant

    I was a very independent girl friend. I bought a flat first and he moved into it. I have always out earned him. I’ve always had my own hobbies and friends. But when we got married it was really odd – all of a sudden he was being very attentive/chivalrous and ‘husbandly’ and seemed to want me to be ‘wifely’. I sorted that out PDQ and we have been happily and equitably married ever since!

    My father had very clear ideas about the roles of wives and mothers and they weren’t remotely compatible with my mother’s views on that! Oops. He has remarried a woman who seems to have read and obeyed The Rules. She is subservient, deferential, highly decorative and grant his every whim. In turn he adores the ground she walks on. Works for them I guess!

    #4154

    SoccerGal
    Participant

    My father: “Women like you and your mother scare the **** out of men.”

    Scary and proud

    He is married to a woman who likes to have a nice clean, tidy house full of wee ornaments. And they are very happy.

    #4155

    faye
    Participant

    Is it still more of an older generation thing perhaps? Mind you my mother is the boss in her house and she’s nearly 80. Do younger men really expect women to be subservient? come on all you surrendered wives, speak up so that I can gain more insight into the modern world

    #4157

    hannnna
    Participant

    Over the years I have met men who say they like women like me and wish they could find someone like me. But in truth, they really don’t.
    My mother on many occasions by many different men has been told she is ‘too much’. A lot of men of her generation can’t cope with the fact that she doesn’t actually ‘need’ anything from them.
    These are purely my own observations.

    #4158

    cat
    Participant

    I did once have a boyfriend who seemed happy enough to be with an independent woman. We moved in together. We were both working fulltime. After a few weeks I raised the issue of cleaning – as in I was doing far more than he was. He replied “well I am happy to help out but I draw the line at cleaning toilets!”

    It didn’t last much beyond that…… I think the cultural biases are very interesting. His view was clearly that HE was helping ME with MY work, lol.

    #4159

    Kelly
    Participant

    I don’t know of any of my male friends who would think like this and my OH wouldn’t dare . Only one of my female friends is a stay at home mum (and she was always the one I knew would end up doing that) although some work part time. All the couples I know share all the jobs at home and none of the women would ever feel or act inferior or as if they’re subservient to their partners. I earn more than my OH and most of my friends earn very similar amounts (pro rata for the part timers). We’re all university educated from upper working/ middle class backgrounds, in decent, pretty gender neutral jobs, and in our 30s so I wonder if that has anything to do with it in that older men or men in more traditionally male roles at work might think differently?

    #4160

    lovely
    Participant

    I am equal to my OH, as in same or similar job. When he was promoted and started being on a higher wage it coincided with me getting more overtime and teaching outside of work, so he never earned more than me.

    I hate housework so checked out of that, and employed a cleaner! I did the washing, we shared the ironing and he did most of the shopping and cooking.

    We both retired but I now work part time, so he does the cleaning, washing, ironing, shopping and cooking.

    BUT – I do know a couple where she has a lesser paid job. She did all the child raising though, cleaning, washing and cooking. She is very happy, as is he. Each to their own I guess.

    #4161

    jess
    Participant

    @lovely I don’t think it’s possible to judge the independence of a woman by relative earnings or by shares of household chores. It’s a state of mind, not of bank balance or who is pushing the hoover.

    #4162

    lilly
    Participant

    Ha, I just had the most horrendous experience with a man 15 years my senior. Supposedly liked how much of a “career girl” I was, that I was financially independent, earning more than him, blah blah blah. Said man became slowly more controlling and the minute I pushed back he couldn’t cope.

    I think some men like the idea of an independent woman but can’t actually cope with the reality.

    #4163

    lilly
    Participant

    My hubby tells me he loves my independance and that is what attracted him to me. We work as partners an equals. Financially I have been the wage earner for most of our 25 years of marriage. It all goes in to a pot for us all to enjoy. i organise the holidays else we wouldn’t go away – he loves going away but has no interest in planning them. We are a bit different but it works for us. I go out to work 3 dys a week and am self employed the rest of the time. My hbby now works for me in the business and does the childcare.
    My dad commented the other day we are uncoventional, but as long as we are happy that is all that matters.

    #4164

    Mega Fan
    Participant

    I like to think of my marriage as a partnership to which we both contribute. Finances are only a small part of it, we use our strengths for the benefit of the partnership and in areas where neither of us have any obvious skill we join forces and get by. My hubby has contributed more financially over the years and currently does the lions share of cooking and cleaning due to my ill health. I take care of finances and the day to day running of the home, I’m also the organiser in the partnership. I worked part time while our son was growing up and supported him academically due to his dyslexia then, more recently, acted as carer to two family members. Neither of us is subservient, we value what the other brings to the relationship and most decisions are discussed jointly – we rarely argue and if necessary compromise. This has worked for us for over 30 years and personally I wouldn’t have it any other way.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  Mega Fan.
    #4166

    oldgal
    Participant

    @mega-fan Yes, that’s how I see my marriage too, as a partnership. No one is in charge. We just work as a team which doesn’t mean anyone is superior. We simply have different qualities and can manage to do most things between us. If we can’t we either don’t do it or pay someone else!

    #4167

    Sammy
    Participant

    Are we defining independence mostly as a financial thing?

    maybe I am mixing up independence with being pragmatic. I am not financially independent in that I could afford what I have on my own. But OH loves that I can dig myself out of snow drifts, drive a lorry, fix guttering and not fall into a hysterical mess in a crisis. he earns 4X what I do, that is never going to change-not sure what I could do about that. I was in a serious relationship years ago whereby my fierce financial independence became an issue in that he got fed up that we didn’t do the things he could afford that I couldn’t -I relaxed about it and learned to enjoy it.

    #4168

    sar
    Participant

    We all like to be needed, men included. I think a lot of men measure their own self worth by being high earners, fixing things, being the physically stronger one. So an independent woman who isn’t looking for that in her partner confuses, bewilders and unintentionally undermines them.

    #4169

    soccerballz
    Participant

    Are we defining independence mostly as a financial thing?

    @sammy No, I don’t think that being independent means being financially independent although of course it does not preclude it I’m afraid that I don’t like the term ‘fiercely independent’ as I don’t think one has to be fierce unless under attack.

    We all like to be needed, men included. I think a lot of men measure their own self worth by being high earners, fixing things, being the physically stronger one. So an independent woman who isn’t looking for that in her partner confuses, bewilders and unintentionally undermines them.

    @sar Not all men I promise you! Some men are secure in themselves and don’t need a weak partner to bolster their ego. Being wanted is good but being needy is not so good

    #4170

    Nasty woman
    Participant

    I’ve had several relationships were the men haven’t coped very well at how mentally and physically strong I am, I kid you not. One used to get quite frustrated that he appeared to struggle lifting things at the farm when I was flinging the things over my back like it were a light rucksack!

    There are some blokes out there who actually do want a lady to ‘look after’ and while I imagine a lot of women would love this, I am certainly not one of them. I don’t even like the gentlemanly stuff like pulling the ladies chair out for them or helping them put their jacket on.

    It really is no wonder I’m single!

    #4171

    soccerballz
    Participant

    @nasty-woman I wonder how many men there are out there who want Victorian type women given to fainting at every opportunity? I couldn’t stand a man like that. I want to be supported and treated as an equal (even if I am different e.g. better driver, less able to pick up 40kg sacks, better at mental arithmetic, worse at cooking or whatever) and the idea of a man who is so insecure that I have to be, or more likely pretend to be, useless appalls me. I am not single but I would be if those sort of men were the only ones available, ha ha

    #4172

    pippy
    Participant

    I have a friend who’s been married to his wife for 10 years. She would think herself feisty (yuk) and possibly an independent woman. He fell in love with her and I think enjoyed being her rock and being relied upon as she struggles with depression and possibly bipolar on and off. I also personally find her difficult to gel with and confrontational.

    Currently he’s feeling fed up as he helped fund her through a masters when their kids were young, they’re now 5yo twins who attend a Steiner private school despite her being a vocal socialist. And he’s still being the rock, taking the kids off by himself to give her time, breakfast in bed etc but he wants to start his own business and at the moment cannot.

    I can’t help thinking his original attraction to being the relied upon one is coming apart a bit as he’s realising that actually it’s just hard work.

    I defer far too much I feel, although my oh would probably say otherwise

    #4173

    strike
    Participant

    I’ve seen too many women come unstuck because they’re totally dependent on their husbands income and have no notion of their finances and would struggle to be able to earn a decent income themselves. It means they feel trapped in their relationship when it’s going very wrong or are left with nothing should they split up.

    There’s no way that I’d be in a relationship like that. It’s the 21st Century, it irks me that so many women still act like they’re in the 19th century. It should be a partnership in all things financial and otherwise. This doesn’t mean that women shouldn’t take time off to have kids etc. But ffs protect yourself.

    Unfortunately my sisters husband was killed in a motorcycle accident two weeks ago and she is in a very precarious financial position because she trusted him and didn’t make sure everything was in order. He’d been diagnosed with liver cancer before that so they should have nailed everything down. I’m angry with him that he didn’t make sure she was ok (there’s a lot I’m not saying) and I’m partly angry with her because why could she be so stupid! She’s 62 has no home of her own, has his debts and not much else. It’s very worrying. I feel sick to my stomach for her.

    #4174

    jasmine
    Participant

    @strike So sorry about your sister, I hope that all works out OK.

    I agree totally with this post. I have a 63 year old friend who does not know what her husband has put in his will. I find that gobsmacking !

    I’ve also seen women in court, still wearing a black eye, beg us to let the boyfriend who gave them it come home so they can do it again. Those women need help to build their self esteem. They are dependant in a very, very destructive way.

    #4175

    soccerballz
    Participant

    @strike I’m very sorry about your sister

    I don’t think that being financially dependent has to be a bad thing if both partners go about it the right way. I’ve only been dependent on OH for money for a comparatively short time but I have my own pension and savings etc because this seems like the sensible option. I will be working again soon, all being well but I will never come anywhere close to earning what OH earns and he’s not the sort to eat out at fancy restaurants and leave me at home with a cheese sandwich. We are a team in every way. I also deal with all our finances as OH isn’t interested.

    #4176

    nicola
    Participant

    Why is total independence considered the be all and end all? I am certainly not subservient to my OH but I also wouldn’t say that I am independent of him either, what I do affect him and vice versa so we both take the other into consideration when making decision. E.g. In SC’s example above I would be FURIOUS if my OH handed in his resignation without discussing it with me, IMO it would be selfish and inconsiderate and by the same measure I would never make such a big decision without consulting him.

    I would say we go against many conventions, e.g. I am the higher wage earner, I proposed to him etc, but I would never say I am independent of him or, for that matter, him of me.

    #4177

    anne
    Participant

    I’m very sorry about your sister

    I don’t think that being financially dependent has to be a bad thing if both partners go about it the right way. I’ve only been dependent on OH for money for a comparatively short time but I have my own pension and savings etc because this seems like the sensible option. I will be working again soon, all being well but I will never come anywhere close to earning what OH earns and he’s not the sort to eat out at fancy restaurants and leave me at home with a cheese sandwich. We are a team in every way. I also deal with all our finances as OH isn’t interested.

    @soccerballz You’re not totally dependent though are you? You’ve other income and savings and you clearly have the skills and wherewithal to increase your income should you need or want to. I’d be surprised if you and your OH are not totally in partnership financially and otherwise and that you don’t leave all the complicated financial stuff to him

    I’m probably not explaining myself well but there’s a difference between the man being the main earner (im not opposed to meeting a rich bloke and giving up work ) and being a completely dependent with no other means. It’s such a precarious position.

    #4178

    Jessica P
    Participant

    To a certain extent surely it has to be a big generational as roles have changed. It’s not that long ago that your whole life changed just because you got married.

    It’s interesting because I would find it hard to consider someone with no income as indepdent, I suspect that is a bit of black and white thinking but it’s interesting to read that you do SC.

    My Dad is definitely not independent, he likes someone to sort eveything out.

    My own view has changed, I would always have said I was happy and pleased to be very independent but quite frankly I would love someone else to do some of it for me 🙁

    #4179

    Jack
    Participant

    As a man I respect and like independent women, and for that matter independent men. I like people who are self directed, accountable and responsible.

    I don’t respect or like bolshy, shouty, “me me me “, simpering, narcissistic, vacuous, untruthful, unkind or manipulative women. Same goes for men.

    Man or woman, doesn’t matter. Its what one is as a person that matters. As stencilface says “be a nice human”

    Embrace the differences between each gender and each gender’s strengths and weaknesses. I have lady friends across the spectrum – from very capable farmers, surgeons, nurses to models and dancers, I don’t think less of a woman if she chooses to work with a set of brushes rather than a socket set.

    #4180

    Jack
    Participant

    Years ago (1980’s) I worked with a woman whose husband took all of her salary from her and gave her a small ‘allowance’ back. If that ran out she had to ask him to buy whatever she needed. Quite unbelievable.

    #4181

    DavidSss
    Participant

    @jack There’s something inside me which really doesn’t want to believe that, except of course, I do.

    Thinking about this entire thread — would it be true that there is often one side of a relationship which tends to dominate? Would it be wrong that there’s one partner who tends to have the louder voice in the major decisions?

    I’ve been thinking about my relationship with my wife and there are undoubtably those sections or parts of our relationship where I tend to be dominant, but then considering the other facets, it is she who holds sway …. and I find that I acquiesce.

    Then of course, do we face the contest and accept that we’ll be prepared to lose the odd battle —— though not the war?

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  DavidSss.
    #4183

    alec
    Participant

    I thought a bit about this last night. Both my grandmothers and my mother, through death or divorce were ‘on their own’ for protracted periods of time. My Nan was a widower for longer than she was married.
    So I guess this is what has coloured my outlook somewhat. I grew up around (what I consider to be) very strong, independent women. My own mother is nearly 70 and continues to run two successful businesses. Everything she has, she earned and worked hard for. I am very proud of her and very grateful to have been raised by these women.

    #4184

    Kerry
    Participant

    I’m a independent woman which is just how my OH likes it. I think generally that men who don’t like it are probably using the dependence as an ego trip. I could easily manage on my own, but that’s not to say I’d want to. I’m probably the more dominant in the relationship as I’m so much happier about making decisions. OH just prefers not to have to do that about small things and is happy for me to get on with it. He’s not somehow inferior to me because of it, he’s just very focused on his work and would rather not have added stress of day to day things. If it’s a big decision we’ll discuss it and he might have a different opinion than me, but not often.

    I’m not financially independent though which I think is a different issue. He works hard, I do everything else and our finances are all joint. If he left me I’d be fine as I’d have the bank cleared out before he shut the door I don’t believe he even knows how to get into the online banking.

    #4185

    sally
    Participant

    I think I consider myself independent. I think my soon to be ex OH always found that a bit difficult to be honest. So maybe it does affect relationships. Sometimes I have been the major earner, at others not – but I do not consider independence to be just a financial thing, more a viewpoint.
    I think I am too old to change though, and to be honest I would not want to be dependent now anyway. I think that would scare me!

    #4186

    bosworth
    Participant

    My ex partner told me I emasculate men, I was too capable and too independent. What he meant was he was a failed man, he was am alcoholic, who couldnt get his act together to even do the basic stuff, so I renovated the house, I sorted electrics, I built up the business and I coped easily without him for 18 months while he had a cushy contract abroad, and an affair. I was the one who was told I was too independent. It stuck with me, that feeling that I was somehow at fault, but finally i can now say its him who has the problem. Not me, hes an excuse of a man, and any man who cannot cope with an independent woman is actually a very insecure in themselves. he was clearly a narcissist, and a misogynist.

    #4187

    babe
    Participant

    The biggest thing I hate about men is they want to be in control, or think they should be in control.
    For what ever reason they think their opinions have more value than a womens and they only like independent women when what they are doing either enhances or does not effect what they do.
    I know of at least four women I know well, where their male partners have controlled money and purchases, even if the women earnt more money, or were better at managing money. My own husband has this fault although he unable to do the food shopping and know what items cost and has a complete inability to shop around for major items.
    If a women has a fear its irrational, if a man has a fear its well founded. As I am getting older more annoyed about this.

    #4188

    alec
    Participant

    The biggest thing I hate about men is they want to be in control, or think they should be in control.

    @babe Not all men. You’ve obviously met the tossers

    But let’s be blunt – women don’t help themselves sometimes. You don’t have to accept that treatment.

    And women can be just as demanding, controlling and abusive.

    Be a good person, don’t be an ******* – whether you’re a man or a woman.

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